December 3, 2003

  • All for One and One For All ?


    I have a lot of "favorite" philosophers.  Some I like to read because I think they were nuts and I like the challenge of working out my argument for why they were off base.  Some because they introduce me to new ways of thinking, and potentially better ways of living.  Some I like because their words resonate with me.  I don't so much think it through and agree with them as I recognize them.  These are the ones that make me wish I had said it that way first. 


    I'm not sure which category I'd put Immanuel Kant into.  (I do apologize to all of you who said that you really didn't want to read a blog on Kant.  He's been on my mind, so I HAVE to write it out, but if you'll hang in with me for a few moments to get him out of my system, I'd appreciate it.)


    See I've been trying to work through some issues in my life, and one of the big concepts that I keep tripping over is responsibility.  Kant was ALL about responsibility.  Anytime you hear things like, "What if everyone did that ...", "All for one and one for all," "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one ..." all these ideas encapsulate the core of Kant's ethics.  He said that we owe it to humanity to live as we ought to live.  He was so insistent upon this business of ought that he said doing the right thing just because we wanted to do it, or preferred to do it didn't qualify us as being moral people.  The only way an action could be considered virtuous in his definition was if you had come to the conclusion that you should do that thing, and performed the action out of your sense of duty.  


    I've found a lot of things that I should do over the years.  And for the most part, I've done them.  I've had a few slips, but I'd like to believe that in the total of my life, I can be counted on to do the right thing.  Sometimes the right thing is a more complicated affair than it appears on the surface.  I'll give another example from Kant's work.  He concluded that it is better for the Higher Good of mankind for people to be honest than to lie.  Therefore under every circumstance in every situation, a person is dutybound to speak the truth. 


    But, you might ask, what if speaking the truth could harm another person?  Say, a man comes running down the road in front of you, haggard, breathing raggedly, and looking roughed up.  He comes to a fork and veers right.  Just about the time he's out of sight, two men come running up from the same direction.  They demand to know which way the first man went.  Should you answer them?  You don't know anything about why they are chasing the man, maybe he's a criminal and these guys are undercover agents in pursuit.  Maybe he's an honest man who escaped from a robbery attempt and they are pursuing him to silence him.  You don't know why they want him.  Should you tell the truth?  Kant would say "yes".  That under all circumstances, it is for the Higher Good that we should volunteer the truth. 


    That's a standard that very few of us would choose to live by.  I think that we all recognize that if we gave information to people bent on harm, then we would bear some responsibility for the harm they did.  So why am I stuck on Kant when there are obvious flaws in his viewpoint?


    It's my own predisposition to accept responsibility for taking care of "the group" first and myself second.  If there are a dozen people who would be affected/influenced by my behavior, then I have been known to take every one of their viewpoints into consideration before I act.  I will state my preference last.  I will make certain that nothing I do could harm you.  If I know that x, y, or z would cause my Mom stress (now keep in mind that my Mom is 62 and I'm 40), I will avoid the action where I can, and if I can't avoid the action, I will try to do it in such a way that she doesn't have to deal with it.  I would not lie about it, but I'd try very hard not to be in a position in which she'd have cause to ASK me whether or not I did x, y, or z.  


    Trying to live responsibly in this way makes me subject to the feelings, the desires, and the happiness of other people.  You see what I mean?  


    But ironically, Kant's imperative to do the thing that you should do rests on the foundation of freedom.  He notices that unless a person is free to choose, then no action they perform can be considered a moral action.  Then he constructs a towering argument which binds me into a place where I'm not free to choose at all. 


    This is ultimately the only logical position of humanity without God.  Nietzsche took this argument to it's extreme in his work.  He concluded that without God we have no choice but to become the shapers of our own values, and fashioners of our own lives.  But he described the responsibility that goes along with such a position as being terrifying in proportion.  In Thus Spake Zarathustra he wrote, "Alas grant me madness ... By being above the law I am the most outcast of outcasts."  The acceptance of the full measure of responsibility for all the possible ramifications of all our actions is the path of insanity. 


    I don't want to be insane.  I want to be a moral person.  But I cannot accept the logical end of being responsible for my every action.  Is there a way out of this quandry? 


    I think the answer is the pairing of freedom with equality.  I'm neither above nor below you.  I'm not responsible for you.  It's an old standard.  But to find balance, I must learn to love my neighbor as I love myself.  I can't place the needs of the many above the needs of the one, I must insert my needs into the equation.  Because, and I think even Kant would agree with this, if we each take care to have our own needs met, that's best for everyone involved.  


     

Comments (23)

  • Yes! 

    I love this anology in relation to this concept:  when on an airplane, should you require oxygen from the pop-down oxygen masks, you are instructed as a parent to put the mask on yourself FIRST, so that you will then be able to help your children with their masks. 

    You've got to keep your cup full if you want to share with others.  Keeping our cups full......putting our masks on first.....that's our responsibility and charge, isn't it?    With love flowing all around--and huge helpings of grace

  • I'm speechless.

  • I apologize if it turns out that I post this twice. When I hit submit, my post didn't show up.

    Anyway, I think of Ayn Rand (who has been on my mind again lately) when I read this. I think she would agree that meeting our own needs simultaneously meets those of others. I have a problem with her hierarchy, though (where the creator of a large corporation has more need than his employee, who supposedly lacks the talent to run the company).  We don't have the right to use people and the earth for our own advantage, even if we somehow justify that it is also to their advantage. True freedom must be, as you say, an equalizer.

    (I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say. Just spinning my wheels. :)

  • Absolutely. 

  • I think that 'pure' philosophy, all related to Descartes rather than the ancients is very much one of the ivory tower. Try as I might to fit it into my own life, their negation of experience as being meaningful, as impacting on thought, is difficult for me, although Kant's three questions can be answered in quite a different way than he intended, and then are more meaningful, at least to me:

    "All the interests of my reason, speculative as well as practical, combine in the three following questions: 1. What can I know? 2. What ought I to do? 3. What may I hope?"

    Kant's division between metaphysics and ethics, which you find valid, puts me in mind of Maimondes instruction to students about to begin philosophy with the study of metaphysics:

    1. "Learn to swim before diving for pearls"
    2. People are not capable at first. They have the potential which must first be developed.
    3. Preparatory studies are wearisome but necessary: Logic, Math, Physics, and then Metaphysics.
    4. A healthy physical constitution and moral maturity are required.

    My sort of guy.  Practical.

    (Actually I am more of an existentialist than this, converted by an early reading of Sartre's Iron in the Soul).

    This was a really good blog, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.  Please don't think that I am in any way flaming you because your philosophy and mine have a different basis.  But if you do, Kant has it covered:

    "Have patience awhile; slanders are not long-lived. Truth is the child of time; erelong she shall appear to vindicate thee."

    (I came in, heard the phone ring, dumped the shopping in the kitchen, and as I took the call checked through Xanga. I've been sitting down reading your blog and writing this comment for nearly half an hour. Its time to unpack the groceries.)

    Great blog, very thought-inspiring. Thanks

  • SDJ -

    I hope that I didn't imply that because I found something to admire and ponder in Kant's ethics that I accept his metaphysics.  I very much agree that the negation of experience, of the subjective is not only intellectually limiting, it is practically impossible which to my thinking is a fatal flaw in all Enlightment Metaphysics.  I'm much more sympathetic to the ancients - and to some more contemporary philosophers who have rejected the "pure" mind approach.   Terri

  • My favorite treatment of morality is the one by John Locke.

  • I think the important part is to take care of our needs without treading on the needs and rights of others. You're right though - a little selfishness with regards to looking after ourselves is good. If we all looked after ourselves, we'd have to look after each other a lot less.

  • " Some I like to read because I think they were nuts and I like the challenge of working out my argument for why they were off base.  Some because they introduce me to new ways of thinking, and potentially better ways of living.  Some I like because their words resonate with me."

    I knew there was a reason why I liked you so much - I do this too!!

    "The only way an action could be considered virtuous in his definition was if you had come to the conclusion that you should do that thing, and performed the action out of your sense of duty. "

    I agree with Kant on this one because, as i'm sure you know, I've been having issues with one of my roommates.  She will often say and do things just to please me because she thinks that will mend the relationship.  However, these actions are false because her heart is not in what she is doing.  She still feels that she shouldn't be doing them - so she is lying through her actions.  She is not the type of person to inquire how my day went - but she will do it because Gwen and I have said "hey, you know it hurts us that you never ask how we are"  - but she does it with regret... okay, i'm blabbering on here - but you get the idea.

    "If there are a dozen people who would be affected/influenced by my behavior, then I have been known to take every one of their viewpoints into consideration before I act."

    I also do this... and I'm not even a mom.. but I have that "mother" mentality already...

    However, by doing this we are denying ourselves our freedom to choose.  Yes we must be aware of others and then of course act accordingly, but not to the extent that we deny ourselves. 

    I understand about the mother issue - my mother knows nothing about my relationships (romantic), I try to avoid discussion at all costs.  I don't feel like talking about it with anyone - and I don't feel like fielding a dozen questions from her - so like you, I avoid the conversational situations that might result in those questions.  However, I don't know that this is necessarily an objection to Kant... we are simply safe-guarding our own privacy and our own right to choose that level of privacy. 

    I think there is also something to taking responsibility for your own actions - as you said, we are neither above or below eachother but I'd like to expand on that by saying that we are all individuals and we must remember that perhaps instead of treating people as we ourselves want to be treated, we should treat them as they want to be treated.  This is of course within reason, because I know lots of people who would prefer me to lie to them about their bad habits and tell them that it's okay to behave this way or that when they are hurting someone else... and you know me, I'm the kind of person who holds up a mirror and says "look at yourself!!"... once again... babbling... but you get the idea :)

  • not much to say here

  • "But to find balance, I must learn to love my neighbor as I love myself. I can't place the needs of the many above the needs of the one; I must insert my needs into the equation. Because, and I think even Kant would agree with this, if we each take care to have our own needs met, that's best for everyone involved."

    I actually don't read much on philosophy even though my Grandma taught it. Now after reading your blog I wish I knew more.

    I have often sacrificed my needs for my family. I didn't pursue the man I love because he didn't like my daughter and I stay with my husband because he is a great dad even though I am not in love with him. Still he is my friend and I care about him.

    Just this week I put off having a hernia surgery until next summer because I decided to home school my children since the school is failing to teach them well this year.

    I think there are exceptions to every rule. Yes meeting our own needs is important but sometimes there are other factors to be considered.

    I am considerate of my neighbors but they have caused much grief to my family and I can't say I love some of them but I don't wish them ill either.

    I really think this is an excellent blog. Thank you for writing it. It has given me much to think about.

  • EXCELLENT piece, T!

    I have been pondering your words for a few hours now, but bottomline, the timing of this post sucks in that you catch me in a brain fog and I am incapable of formulating the reply I would wish to express.

    For the moment, let me just throw these 'profound banalities' in the arena:

    There are few 'absolutes' in life or nature. Little purity. Shades of gray and nuances of every color are infinite. As are contradictions and exceptions. That last bit especially -- pretty much sums up where I'm at: life is one huge web of contradictions and exceptions.

    -- Lise

  • "In Thus Spake Zarathustra he wrote, "Alas grant me madness ... By being above the law I am the most outcast of outcasts."  The acceptance of the full measure of responsibility for all the possible ramifications of all our actions is the path of insanity."

    How in the name of Neptune did you come to that conclusion via Nietzsche? I would suggest that most philosophers, including Nietzsche suggest that the acceptance of the full measure of responsibility for all the possible ramifications of all our actions places us on the path of completeness, thus, more 'godlike'. I would further suggest that in your synopses of Nietzsche you state, "He concluded that without God we have no choice but to become the shapers of our own values, and fashioners of our own lives." Therefore he is, in part, suggesting that we must become 'godlike' in being. I pose that the path spoken of is one to self-fulfillment and not insanity. Unless of course you see self-fulfillment as insanity?

    Sail on... sail on!!!

  • I take a different stance that anything we do should be done out of love.

    Say that your example situation occured to me I would try and pick the people I felt more compassion for and lean in that direction.

    Like if I felt more compassion for the running man I would then ask the question...why do you want to know?

    This would not deny me from eventually telling the truth though according to their answer.

    If they say he has commited a robbery I would tell them where he went...if they say they hate him and wish him harm, I would tell them I know where he went but my lips are sealed.

    Of course there are always times where I don't do these things out of excitment or just plain stupidity...they are however my guidelines.

    Is you comment section blog capable? lol..

  • Sometimes, you scare me.  :)

  • very provocative (I love blogs that challenge people to THINK)...

    I'm rather not existential, myself.  Too much experiential living to do.  Besides, mental gymnastics are difficult when you are not limber (e.g., me).

    Alas, there are always conundra to butt up against anytime we seek to justify what we think, feel, believe.  I find that the wisest path is to perpetually seek more wisdom.  For there is certainly no limit to that, is there?

  • well done, and well said!

    it has become my lifetime obsession to read kant's Critiques but i always stop because i just can't (sort of like LOTR, but on a much higher and more frustrating level). so it's a good thing i read you instead

  • Great blog.. not much more I can say.. all has been said in such eloquant ways... I do however feel that I am responsible for the choices that I make.. and therefore must accept the consequences of such choices.. and I can say.. I've made some doozies...

    Bright Beautiful Blessings Chel

  • Well, I've read this through twice, and to be honest with you, I can't com up with a comment that would even fit here. I think you've done an excellent post and anything I say would not measure up.

  • As usual with your most thoughtful work, I'm struggling to keep up because I am not as well versed.  I think people ARE naturally "above" and "below."  .......... dang.  crying child in lap........more later!!

  • Okay, let me try to respond again, this time without the crying child (and the fascist overtones, if that can be managed ).

    I'm not going to argue/discuss this on a Kantian level, because I'm hardly capable of naming the great philosophers, let alone distinguishing them on the basis of their viewpoint.  So this is coming from what your words meant in my little uneducated corner (which means, of course, that I can say anything irrelevant or irreverant and then claim ignorance when it's complete idiocy -- good, eh ?).

    I'm all for law and order and the moral perogative.  But I'm very much for the seat-of-the-pants common-sense judgement too.  When that ?thief/?goodman runs by you followed by his hounds, who can stand and remember Kant before acting?  You've got to go with the gut at the moment, and maybe justify your actions later, if you feel the need (my corporate lawyer would have a cow about now -- good thing he's not computer literate). 

    As to who is responsible, this is where we get into my innate fascism (and my difficulties with lettersat3am's remarks).  Am I a better woman because I am near the top of my corporate hierarchy?  No.  Am I more intelligent than, say, my IT guy, who's my direct subordinate?  No (and talk about computer illiteracy, me vs. him:  HA).  However, I do have significant administrative power over him.  I direct him.  Is that wrong?  Should I not have that responsibility, because he and I are free and equal?  I would argue not.  I have been trained to be a leader (well -- of sorts).  That training, although it doesn't undermine the free-and-equal nature of me and all my colleagues, DOES, I argue, make me not only better-equipped to make decisions that personally affect them, but gives me the RESPONSIBILITY to do so.

    I'm not sure how this feeds into your thoughts, exactly, but I'm sure YOU'RE sure (as in:  does/does not). 

    Gads.  You need to move closer to me, woman.  We need to talk a lot more about higher level stuff.  I need to soak up some learnin'.

  • God Bless -Dale

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