February 28, 2003
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Leaping Logical Limitations!
Wouldn't it be nice if everyone were logical and straightforward in their thinking? Think how many wars could be averted, how many crises could be solved, how many new discoveries we'd see published, and how vast the improvement to our quality of life. Why if only people would take the time to think things through step by step avoiding the contradictions and obfuscations that are the bane of logicians everwhere, life would be pretty near perfect? Wouldn't it?
I've seen several blogs recently bemoaning the fact that most people are illogical at best and criminally slip-shod by habit in their attempt to reason from problem to solution. I have some considerable sympathy for this position. I'm often frustrated by conversation with people who seem to live by the dictates of the Rule of Law - if the law is against you, argue the facts; if the facts are against you, argue the law; if both are against you, call the other side names. Some of you may even have cause to believe that *I* operate in this fashion at least in regard to the first two precepts. I like to "play devil's advocate" from time to time because arguing the other side helps me to see the weaknesses of my position, uncovers unanswered questions, and generally keeps me open to the truth that mine isn't the only Point of View.
I think that there are other people out there who value truth, logic and questioning as a path to understanding. But, most of the time, even if I find them we eventually butt heads over some issue or another with both of us convinced that the other person is utterly lacking in reason. It isn't because we don't both apply rules of logic to our discussion, it's because there are limits to the value of logic in leading to answers.
Logic works by comparing statements to determine which is true and which is false. There are charts, graphs, memorizable lists of rules for rhetoric, and other devices which at least imply that if only all people would simpy utilize the tools available, argument could end and we'd all live in happy agreement. But, the beginning point of any discussion is always a single premise. There has to be a bedrock statement from which all others follow in order for the rules of logic to apply.
I like reading Philosophers. They are an interesting group of people. (Mostly nerds like myself.) One of my favorites is George Santayana, mostly because he says the most outrageous things. His Life of Reason is just filled with one great quote after another. I'm going to pick on him for the next few moments. (He's dead, so I doubt he'll care one way or the other.) One section of his magnum opus deals with reason in religion. Everything he says about religion he bases on a single premise, "Religion pursues rationality through the imagination." Frankly, this premise is fraught with the possibility for abuse. He never defines religion, rationality or imagination but immediately assumes that the reader knows exactly what he means by those terms. He then goes on to build an argument which includes a series of statements such as: Religion assigns causes or explains events as an imaginative substitute for science. The conditions and aims of life are both presented in religion poetically. Poetry tends to arrogate to itself literal truth and moral authority neither of which it possesses. The method of religion is to proceed by intuition and by unchecked poetical conceits.
I doubt very much that Senor Santayana and I would ever be able to have a meaningful conversation, no matter how logical we each were, on the topic of religion. His premises leave no room for such data as literal experience or reality as proper subjects for religious reason. (Don't take my word for it, he says so himself two paragraphs down from the one I lifted the above quotes out of.)
Santayana and I come from two mutally exclusive worldviews. He is a thoroughgoing naturalist. To his way of thinking Ulimate Reality is no more than the sum of material existence. My worldview holds that there are phenomena which are inexplicable by natural processes alone. Because we each view the other's basic assumptions as flawed, we are doomed from the outset.
Much of the recent discussion pointing out inadequacies of contemporary reasoning has been centered on the debate over the looming War with Iraq. Various sides state their premises and argue from them with the conviction that anyone who fails to reach the same conclusion has used poor logic. However, for the most part, I don't detect lack of reasoning ability so much as I see the arguments based on unprovable premises.
One side says, Sadam has weapons of mass destruction. If the UN inspection team does not report on these weapons it is because Sadam is hiding them, deceiving the inspectors, or the inspectors are in collusion with him. But do you see the problem here? How do they KNOW that Sadam has these weapons? No one argues that in the past he has possessed them. But over the past twleve years, he claims to have destroyed them. The UN inspection team has unanswered questions with regard to the methodology of the destruction and the adequacy of disposal, but they have no indication that the weapons continue to exist.
The other side says, Sadam has destroyed his weapons of mass destruction. If the UN inspection team does not report that the weapons exist, it is because they have done their job, verified the destruction, and confirmed that the weapons are gone. This position ignores the fact that unanswered questions in regard to the methodology of destruction and adequacy of disposal remain. It further relies heavily on the word of a man that no one, including his own people trusts. The fact that he has lied in the past is not proof that statements he makes today are false, but it does suggest that we must use extreme caution in accepting his claim.
Both sides are arguing from ignorance. Neither has conclusive proof that their claim is true. Both are arguing that because their premise cannot be proven false, it MUST be true. This is no different than arguing that because no one has been able to prove that ghosts do not exists, ghosts MUST exist.
Argument that Sadam is evil is irrelevant to the logical problem of determining the status of his disarmament. Pointing out his past crimes is not proof of his present noncompliance. The suggestion that we have a moral responsibility to wage war on Iraq to remove Sadam from power because of the potential threat he poses to the region and to his own people does not address the logical problem at the root of the question. Does or does not Sadam Hussein continue to possess weapons of mass destruction?
Anti-war demonstrators may have a conviction that war is categorically evil and to be avoided at all costs. It is possible to disagree with this view, but to call this view "illogical" implies that it is possible to prove that war is not a categorical evil. If you want to try to prove that one - well, good luck. In 4000 years of recorded history no one has yet come up with a "proof" one way or another on questions of the constitution of moral good, evil, or even if there is such a thing.
Logic is useful even essential to meaningful discussion and debate. Logic however is limited by our ability to know and understand a single truth from which we may proceed. No amount of reasoning ever produces a new truth, it merely tests a new truth claim against established criteria.
My two favorite works on Logic are Introduction to Logic by Irving M Copi which is a heavy book likely to damage any toe it's dropped upon, and Nonsense, How to Overcome It by Robert J Gula, a much less technical volume.
PS - A second person I really like has recently ended his/her Xanga blog because of the nastiness that occurred when that person offered an opinion on the war question. So if you are looking for my hidden agenda, it's that I really wish we could tone down the rhetoric here. We are not each other's enemies.
Comments (28)
...two days ago the newspaper headlines read: "Bush promises to rebuild Iraq." Today the headlines read: "Sadam promises to dismantle missels." Tommorrow headlines...? War IS politics. Politics do not equal logic.
MuSe
Re: your PS. That's why I have kept my political opinions (illogical, and often self-contradictory, as they are) off my blog....
That's why I don't say much political on my blog, I get enough hatemail as it is...
it is hard to make sense of politics....as common sense does not seem to apply in the complicated world of the ruling power in this country. I fear for our democracy and if this keeps up we will become a facist country. (oops, did I say that???)
It seems to me like the handwriting is on the wall.
Oh, and you are so right when you say that we are not each other's enemies....
I have a theory that we are The Family of Man....and that inside our very selves when we are born we are innocent and perfect and here for a purpose.
offering an opinion, I'm fine with that... what I cannot fathom is browbeating people in tone and not being able to see, as you do, that there are always more than one side to an issue.
Pro or con... I do believe no one wants war-- I mean, who does?
and have you heard some of the stuff BOTH sides sling? Stupid shit that preys on emotions rather than logic!
Thanks for this Terri. I am a better person (not to mention XANGAN) for having read (not skim/scanned) your post today.
BTW, the person who quit xanga... anyone I know?
"The UN inspection team has unanswered questions with regard to the methodology of the destruction and the adequacy of disposal, but they have no indication that the weapons continue to exist"
That was something I was trying to get across to someone earlier. I felt that was a major point but of course, I wasn't allowed to get that far in my opinion. Some people aren't worth the energy to talk to.
Another fabulous point.. we aren't the enemy here so why do we act like it?
This is a brilliant post, and I'm not just saying that because you commented on my topically-related whine from earlier this morning.
I think you have some wonderful points about logic and belief, and how there are places where logic simply can't take us. I agree, there are times when people claim to be making "rational" arguments, but at the core of their reasoning is a personal value judgment--and of course, that's not something which can be proved or disproved.
I really enjoyed reading this one!
Bravo to you for breaking it down this way, T. But I applaud your last paragraph loudest! It's hard to hear a dissenting opinion when ours are so strong, and the topic so terrifying with such worldwide impact. Yes, I have feelings about the war, too, but I'm keeping them to myself right now. I suspect I'd be blasted for my rather unpopular and unusual perspective. And, frankly, I'd rather not comb shard from my hair this week.
We are not each other's enemies. Indeed.
Most interesting premise, “Logic however is limited by our ability to know and understand a single truth from which we may proceed. No amount of reasoning ever produces a new truth, it merely tests a new truth claim against established criteria.”
Perhaps I might be this person>>> “I think that there are other people out there who value truth, logic and questioning as a path to understanding.”
Thus I request that your argue logically (or otherwise) your stated ‘premise’ as stated within your post. (I do understand that it was not intended to be the premise of your entry.) Although fascinating I would like to see the premise argued further before I scream “Falsity!” *Evil Grin*
About your PS my dear; This is xanga, it is an open forum in ‘blog’ form. I strongly suggest that if an individual is not prepared to deal with scoundrels, rogues, drunks and punks that they do themselves a BIG favor and post their work in private and…
Sail on… sail on!!!!
I love you Terri but this is one of those blogs that is so far over my head that after I had read down about 3 paragraphs I suddenly realized that instead of reading consciously I was in fact trying to decide what to make for dinner tonight......
I promise I will return to read this post when I know that I can spend some uninterrupted time in digesting the statements you have made here.
As always I am impressed with your thought pattern and content - I just wish that I was in a position to follow it all the way through.
Open discussion of ideas and criticism of our government or each other is the beautiful sound of freedom of speech. This is our right as Americans! We are free to speek our minds--as biased, illogical, or as rational as they may be! Embrace it! Learn from each other. Don't be afraid and run away from ideas that are different than your own.
But please, kids, don't try this in Iraq
I wish that everyone was forthcoming on what they have to say...we wouldn't have to worry about trying to read between the lines and such.
It's too bad that people have to be so nasty to each other.
Take care m'dear
~Maria
Ah, yes. I figured the hidden agenda was as stated, but kudos to you for not hiding it, in the end! I've been in such a non-reading state for so many weeks now that I don't know the blogs to which you refer, but it is sad. The only way to get through a difference of opinion (and that includes even so major a difference of opinion as our opinion and "theirs;" Iraq or whomsoever) is to keep communicating. Of course, that's hard for anyone (me included) in the heat of the hard-written battle. "War" has become, like "abortion," "death penalty," and "religion," one of those things one approaches with great hesitation. But which one should approach, nontheless!
dread - Perhaps I might be this person>>> “I think that there are other people out there who value truth, logic and questioning as a path to understanding.”
You are beloved for many reasons and not least of which is your commitment to the exercise of logic and debate.
I have been considering how I might honor your request to expand (argue) for the conclusion I used as the premise of this post without having to go so far as to write a book. I will go back to the definitions of argument, premise and logic to make my point in brief. Logic is the formal process of inference by which one reasons from premise to conclusion. The argument is the series of steps one takes between the premise and conclusion. In order for an argument to be intellectually meaningful, it must derive from a premise assumed to be true. (For example, I could argue a point beginning with the premise that "pixies produce dust with the capacity to render one weightless" but since I'd be arguing from a premise that no one else agrees to be true, anything that follows is meaningless.)
Persons of intellectual honesty may have points of agreement that extend through several arguments with the conclusion of each becoming the premise of the next. When they reach a point upon which they disagree as to the next conclusion, they engage in discussion, debate, and research to resolve the problem. But, the conclusion never escapes the process from which it derives, it never rises higher than the premise. A new conclusion is not a new truth but rather the further application of an assumed truth.
Should we go in the reverse order to what I have described above we may reason from our conclusions back to the premises from which they were derived, but eventually in that direction we reach the bedrock of Ultimate Reality. Either we agree upon that Ultimate Reality and therefore affirm each other in the entire chain of logic, or we disagree upon the constitution of Ultimate Reality and thus one of us must acknowledge that the logical foundation of the chain is one to which we cannot give intellectual assent. Regardless, the premises of Ultimate Reality (which might also be called worldviews) are unproveable. We either agree to start from a particular assumption about the nature of reality or we do not, but we cannot prove that one particular view is correct. If we agree about reality, we can argue to logical conclusions based on that assumption of reality, but if we do not agree on that foundational assumption, no amount of logical process is either meaningful or persuasive to the other person. This is not the fault of the reasoners, but the inevitable result of a process that must be acknowledged to rest upon an assumed - but unprovable foundation. To the one that foundation is truth, to the other it is ... pixie dust.
Thank you for being so bold as to lay it out there. I'm a coward and so I seldom speak, or when I do it is in a way that I hope will not be simply offensive but persuasive based on experience. It is from our experiences in life that we draw so many beliefs.
Q,
Well writ! By Jove I think she has it shipmates. Michael, Tucker … LOOK OUT LITTLE DUDES!
I concur that, “Logic however is limited by our ability to know and understand a single truth from which we may proceed.” I have only a query upon the following sentence within the subject paragraph. “No amount of reasoning ever produces a new truth, it merely tests a new truth claim against established criteria.” I would say that the use of the two words “No amount” is the stumbling block for me. I have yet to find or validate a single absolute within the existence I call life. The scientific community also shuns absolutes for a variety of reasons as well. I would argue that the words “No amount” equate to an absolute and therefore have to reject the second part of the sentence. Replacing ‘it’ with the subject Logic I read, “Logic merely tests a new truth claim against established criteria.” Here I would state that this sentence is a Truth considering this is almost an exact rephrasing of the definition of logic!
So the only falsity I would argue is the use of the absolute. I would think that the statement of, “Reasoning produces a new truth.” would be a Truth. Therefore I submit that it is only the use of the absolute that bring this premise into question.
Have we confused everyone yet?
sail on... sail on!!!
A-MEN! I don't blog often on my opinions on this war (which is going to happen, I'm afraid, whether we want it to or not) for that very reason. I will, however, be pretty open when the next presidential election time rolls around. LOL
What worries me the most about all this backbiting nastiness towards those who don't share the same feelings about the US going to war is this: is it going to be a civil war here at home where those who are patriotic and heavily into supporting our troops and our country are attacked by those who think peace is the only way? I don't want to see that happen. I think that those who believe peace is the answer should stick to that belief, but share it in - surprise! - a peaceful way, without attacking those who see it differently.
It is a lot like the abortion issue, isn't it? Just as I don't believe "pro-abortion" is an accurate description of those who support the right to choose, I don't believe that those who support military action (and the millions of men and women out there with their lives on the line for it) are war mongers.
Well written, impressive blog. As usual.
The Rules of Law. The real rules of law as told me by my top uk lawyer bf is that first one through the door with the cheque is the man he represents. Also he reminded me that the old joke that a good lawyer knows the law but an excellent lawyer knows the judge is true.
He might be a top lawyer but he has no respect for the law at all. Only money. He likes the French legal system though.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with logic, but then, my dear, neither do I....
love your blog
I'm here, I'm out there. But my brain is frazzled and your title sent me packin'. Not your fault. so just a couple of eprops to let you know if I were in a better state, I'd read and surely (as I often do) enjoy the fruits of your labors here. Send energy (please) but not during my sleeping hours, as I do need my sleep
Yeah, I agree--it would save us a lot of trouble if people were more logical. I enjoy philosophy, but to be honest, sometimes it just gets WAY too out of control for me. When I was younger I used to debate all the usual questions...where we come from, is there a God, the meaning of life, all that kind of stuff, but sometimes I just roll my eyes when people go off on a philosophical tangent these days because they tend to take it way too far sometimes. It's always good to ask questions!
Enlighten me on the absolutes that exist Q.
God Bless - Dale
I have to agree with Muse. If you want rational behavior/thinking, do not go into politics. Passion and logical thinking do not go hand in hand and niether do thoughts of war and the political clime of the times.
We will go to war regardless what Congress, the American people or people abroad think or want. Who wants war? Plenty, I am afraid although it is not politically correct to say so.
How true. I often find myself in the same boat. I can see both sides of the story, but I can not align myself with a side that has refused to answer all my important questions. Most people consider me a fence-rider, but I'd rather run the safe route than be totally wrong or right for the wrong reason.
Hey YOU!!! yeah, you, my heroine!!! lol I am nominating you, this blog, to ZangaZine! I hope you're excited!
Here is the lnk to the site there ... I think you might like the read if you aren't already aware of it, go take a look. http://www.xanga.com/skin.asp?user=ZangaZine
take care and hugs,
Deb
Congrats! This blog has been nominated for ZangaZine and appears in this week's issue! Keep up the great work!
Word! I am the same way. I like being devil's advocate because it helps me find fallacies in my stands through sometimes questioning believes which I may completely agree with. People hate me. They think I'm argumentative and never get anywhere. Talk to any of my ex girlfriends. HAH! All I can say in my defense is that I was only trying to help them have a solid mind.
But ya, Logic rules, but I think this only works for mindless blabber. Once a person has to deal with arguments related to people's behaviors and motives, ie in a relationship, one has to appease to the emotional and continue the argument not by defying the other person's feelings as illogical, but by defining logic emotionless. Do you get what I'm saying?
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