December 11, 2002
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Saving Grace
Yesterday's post prompted some great discussion in my comments section and on my phone, and over my dinner table. So now I'm in the difficult position of trying to decide how to begin today's thought. I'm not sure that everyone heard what I intended to say yesterday, so I want to say some of it again for my own sake. Please give me a paragraph of patience on this.
No one is "saved" by religion. Theology is what happens when people who've had experience of God attempt to translate that experience into language that other people can understand. Religion happens when people come together and translate their worship from a private into a corporate experience. Intellectual assent to the theology and participation in the ritual of religion are both valuable things, but they do not equal direct experience of God.
One of my favorite Christian author/speakers wrote a book a few years back entitled "We Have Met the Enemy and They are Partly Right". (If I ever get published I hope I have someone who can think up cool title's like that for my stuff.) I'm not much about correcting theological error. I've been on the receiving end of well-intentioned but ultimately harmful efforts by people who just wanted to set me straight often enough to have lost whatever taste I might have had for engaging in such activity myself. And, I've learned that it's just as rare for someone to be all wrong as for me to be all right.
I am very much about asking questions and being willing to hear a hard answer. Christians have a lot of it right. Two things we understand is that people are saved by faith and that it is through God's grace that we are given faith. There is nothing any person can do so summon the exact proper amount of faith to "win" a spot in the eternal in-crowd. What we sometimes fail to do is carry our understanding all the way out to it's logical conclusion.
Faith is defined by theologians as the response of man to God. I cannot respond to something that I don't believe exists. I cannot form a relationship with someone that I have never met. I can talk about a concept, or I can talk about a person, but to have faith is to have a relationship with God.
There are all kinds of reasons, good reasons why a person may be unable to offer intellectual assent to theological constructs. Some Christian evangelists out of well-meant desire to see people experience God have presented Him in such a way that the very people they are most concerned about are hurt and offended. If you are one of those people who have been hurt in this way, I'm sorry. The truth is that God in His grace doesn't require us to do anything to be His friend. One of the Bible verses that we Christians love to quote reminds us that God reaches out to us before we ever consider reaching out to Him (and really when you think about it, what could we possibly offer to God to bribe Him into accepting us anyway?)
I'm concerned for those who have been terribly wounded by religion or religious people. I look in the Bible to see how Jesus and his disciples responded when they met people who fit this description. I gave some examples of Biblical texts concerning pagans yesterday, today I'd like to mention another. First there is the episode of Jesus meeting and speaking with the woman at the well. This woman had all kinds of obstacles between herself and Jesus in the estimation of his disciples. First off she was a woman, no respecting rabbi would speak with a woman. The woman in question was a Samaritan, a despised ethnic minority. In addition to having these strikes against her, she lived a life her community judged harshly. She had bounced from man to man and was at the time living with a man who was not her husband.
Jesus did some remarkable things in this encounter. He broke social convention by speaking with her, by asking for water from her dipper, and by raising the issue of her affairs. Then she asked him for a definitive answer to a religious question - where is the right place to worship God? His answer to her is one of the more fascinating passages I've ever meditated upon. He said "You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming and now is when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth."
As a teenager, I brought this verse to my Dad in a plea that he allow me to sit a little closer to the back of the sanctuary with my friends. See he had this rule that I could sit anywhere I wanted in church as long as I would sit in front of him - and he sat on the third pew back from the front on the left side of the sanctuary. So I mostly sat alone and felt all the eyes on the back of my head. My Dad's answer was classic Don Chenault. "It's true that you CAN worship anywhere, the question is not CAN you, its WILL you." I don't know if the heady distraction of my friends would have prevented me from worshiping, I never got the chance to find out.
As an adult I've cone to understand that there are all kinds of layers in the passage from the book of John and in my Dad's answer. See, I could be sitting on the front row, looking very attentive to all the people sitting around me, and not be worshipping at all. Or I can be physically in the middle to the back row center section but in every other way I'm standing before the throne of God. I can be sitting in a Christian church, a meeting of people exploring together the precepts of Buddhist meditation, a solemn celebration of seder, a state park, or at my dining room table and have the same experience of worship. I have prayed aloud, silently, through dance, through song and through tears when I had no words at all. I've met God through the spontaneous expression of worship in a charismatic fellowship and in the high ritual of mass.
I believe that there are people who have met the Spirit of God, who have had their life altered by the experience and who are in a genuine relationship with the Creator of the Universe in response to His invitation who do not call themselves Christian. I believe that there are Christians who show up regularly at church and go through all the motions and say all the words who have never met God and wouldn't recognize Him if he showed up at their doorstep with a nametag.
I don't know which people are which. I know only that God is real and is actively engaged in the business of inviting people to come into relationship. Some places are more conducive to hearing that voice and responding to that invitation than others. But, just as God is everywhere, those who respond to God are everywhere. Only you can say whether the place you hang out makes it more or less possible for you to meet God.
I believe there is only one God. Everyone who has met God has met the same God. But, every experience of God is unique. We meet God with our mind, heart, body and spirit. When we meet religion it's sometimes tempting to think that we've met God. But, the two are only distantly related. I believe the promise given in the Bible that anyone who seeks God will find God.
See now I'm preaching again. I'm almost tempted to give an altar call and invite you to contribute to the offering plate because that's generally how we do it in the place where I worship. How about this instead? If you have a question about God as I know God, or if you have an experience of God that you'd like to share and you don't particularly want to put it out there in the comments section for everyone to dissect, I'd love to have you email me. I don't have all the answers. I don't even have all the questions. I do have an open heart and a ready listening ear to hear your story.
Comments (29)
I think you did a good job clarifying some of the points we discussed ..... good blog
I have had more than one meeting with God. He has to be there, in my opinion, because of the things that have happened in my life and how He kept me going. To each person, the experiences are varied and different... I posted one such experience awhile back (God Spoke and I Listened) to see if anyone else had one.
Regarding people with doubts, questions, a bad experience, I have found that time and patience are a huge help in breaking barriers.. and also, the person has to be ready and willing to listen and hear and accept. That is why I delved into apologetics so deeply. Be ready with answers when you are called upon to have them. You never know when you will be called... but I like to be prepared.
You nailed it with "I believe the promise given in the Bible that anyone who seeks God will find God." That, to me, sums it up.
Good post again!!
May I ask a question? ((And set up the scene for the question, to clarify))
Christ went into Paradise after His bodily death on earth for three days - from Good Friday to Easter Sunday. He then was resurrected from the dead, and told people "do not touch Me - I have not yet ascended to my Father"... meaning He had not gone to heaven, but Paradise, to witness to those who had gone before and had not the opportunity to accept Him as Savior.
These people included Abraham, Noah, David, Isaiah... all of the men of God who had passed on before Christ died for the sins of mankind. Men who lived under the old covenant.
If they knew Christ was coming and held fast to that belief that was prophesied and promised... and these people were known by God... why would there be a need for Christ to minister to the saints passed on in Paradise for those three days? If anyone who believes in God is saved and if knowing Christ is not necessary, what was the purpose of that visit, and why would Paul (who was traveling with the apostle Luke at the time) write that the way to salvation is "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God hath raised Him from the dead."?
And further, if one could go to heaven for believing in God and seeking Him in their own way, why would Paul, Luke, John, Peter and the others make long and difficult missionary journeys? And why would Jesus, for that matter? Weren't the Pharisees seeking God in their own way?
Anna - where in the bible does it say that is where Jesus was during the 3 days before he was resurrected??
Let the sparks of the discussion fly... I'll just read
I think at this point I will sit at the sidelines like Patrick. I've seen alot of strange theology here from both Christian and non-Christian and the exchange of innuendos is never going to bring tolerance, only more division. o/

God Bless - Dale
Anna - I attempted to email the answer to your question but the mail was returned as undeliverable. I'd be happy to resend it if you'll email me your address.
Guys - No sparks,
Just us friendly discussors here.
One sentence here caught my attention: "(and really when you think about it, what could we possibly offer to God to bribe Him into accepting us anyway?)"
Why is religion so demeaning? The basis of religion is that we are horrible and vile creatures, made from clay, nearly unworthy of our creator's love. We aren't animals that have raised themselves up, because that would be a source of pride.. No, we are God's creation that is constantly sinning and fortunate that his love is infinite or we would be screwed. Everwhere in religion is guilt, reminders that humanity is virtually without merit: Christians decorate their church with reproductions of their savior nailed to a cross! Purportedly, this is to remind them of what he did for them, but I think it is also a nice reminder of what humanity did to him.
Let me offer an answer to your question, what could you offer to an all-knowing God:
Your short-sightedness. Imagine being all-knowing for a second. You wouldn't be joyous at the birth of a baby, because you would already know about the painfull and lingering cancer that awaits it. You wouldn't rejoice in the presence of your first love, because you would already know how agonizingly it was going to end. Every wonder would be tainted, every horror partially balanced by a later good. The universe would be bland, gray, and repetitive.
I say that if there is a God, we were put here to look at each day, each joy and pain, in a way that he never ever could.
But nobody ever talks about a God that needs us as much as we need him. It's probably sacrilege.
I didn't read your blog from yesterday. I consider myself a Christain, loosely speaking, because that is the way I was raised. I spent almost 30 years in a Christian commune that was based on the Bible. We read the King James Version. I cannot abide any other version to this day.
I have changed in some ways...for instance I do not go to church. I cannot stand Bible thumping or missionaries that try to convert other cultures by destroying those cultures and killing the people.
I believe in the Sacred Feminine and that there is a Divine Balance between God and Goddess. I think that there is way way too much patriarchy in this world and that people fear how powerful we women truly are.
My religion is kindess.....and lots and lots of love. That's the whole point of Christ conciousness, is it not? And any other concious belief that puts love in the highest place.
I am not about to quibble about who is right and who is wrong...I am just here to be an example of my highest values and do the best that I can as a human on this earth.
Thanks for sharing. You can email me as well, if you wish.
Blessings.
I think that it is a sharing to acknowledge all the religions of the world by understanding that there is One God which is involved in all of them..... I've been told that there is a 'key to the Bible' and have pondered that many years.
There are hints everywhere and I feel I've found the key, but what if I am wrong?
Here's a question: You said, "I believe there is only one God. Everyone who has met God has met the same God." What happens if a good liar comes around saying "I'm the one God.' There is still only one God and still every who has met him has met the same one, but somebody hasn't met God and thinks he has. What then?
KB
I'm gonna paraphrase Joel Osteen here, because his sermon on this very topic touched me so incredibly.
Religion is not in any way the same thing as a personal relationship with God. Religion binds us with rules and regulations - God frees us from our bonds. God doesn't care if we go to church and worship just like everyone else in the building every time the door is unlocked. He wants our hearts and souls to know Him, to know His awesome power to take care of us.
Now I'll read the comments. But first...thank you. For giving words to the feelings and thoughts I have had about Faith. I can't do it - give words to Faith. It simply...IS for me.
Now I gotta comment on one of the comments (Exmortis). Sorry.
Good question. Why would God, in all His infinite wisdom and perfection, create such wretched creatures as we are taught by world religions that we are? And if He created us as wretched and imperfect creatures and then wants us to grovel and beg and slave and be as miserable as possible to make our way back to Him, what kind of God is that?
Not one I would want to follow.
I don't believe it. I believe anything and everything He created was perfect and exactly as it should be. And the mere words of mere men has turned it into misery, where God only wanted for us joy and victory.
I'm done now. heh Sorry to blog your blog, Quiltin'.
Well I know you are right about God not being recognized even with a name tag. Who'd believe that?
I was going to leave you a comment but it was getting to be a blog on its own so I'll write it over on my own blog
I just want to take this moment to say a big
~
~ THANK YOU ~
~
to everyone who has commented on this blog topic and the related ones before, and especially to quiltnmomi for presenting it here.
Good answer. A book I was reminded of in your reply that you might be interested in is The Call.
Blessings!
KB
This illustrates why I have a fundamental disconnect from christianity. I can understand the theology, but never this "personal experience" people inevitably can't describe or impart. If "true faith" is based on that, I will forever be a skeptic. Which I embrace, by the way, as the proper stance for just about everything.
I haven't read all the responses yet, but I liked Anna's questions so I thought I'd respond go both. She is right as I think quiltnmomi is right also--those that honestly seek God and are eventually saved WILL find Christ at some point. You can't have one without the other. Like those in paradise (and yes the bible does address this, can't remember where) they did have a relationship with God, they just needed to finally also meet Christ. They weren't not saved before that, but they also weren't in heaven yet because they didn't have the One that covered their sins to stand in their place yet either. I think (correct me if I'm wrong...I haven't been reading your blogs very long.
) but I think quiltimomi is saying that those honestly seeking will eventual find God eventhough some take much more in direct routes than others. And for those that truely stick with it, God WILL eventually get them to Christ one way or another (how that is done is between them and God), because He will lead someone to Christ if He knows they truely are seeking. And after they have found Christ, it doesn't matter if they are physically in a buddist temple or anywhere else, the question is what are they really worshipping? And I do agree totally that just sitting in church doesn't make you a christian or anything either! My personal take on this is at the point I'm at spiritually I'd be uncomfortable in a buddist temple, but if for whatever reason I found myself in one, I suppose I could make the best of it and be free to worship God there also.
Please "preach" more. I love hearing your thoughts. I especially liked about the people who had a relationship with the spirit of God vs Christians going thru the motions.
At 6, I was put in fostercare and I grieved horribly for my mother to God at night. A warm comforting spirit soothed me all through my childhood and even today when I get desperate it is there for me. My hubby says "how do you know its God and not some other ghost or spirit?" I don't... except that my prayers are addressed to "God." Prayer with an open heart & listening ear worked for me. I hope it does for you too.
The episod of Gospel relating the meeting between Jesus and the Samartain woman at the well is a one of the most beautiful . It is read during the Lent at the chuches . Jesus announces love , tolerance and forgiving . God is love and compassion . He is suffering with us . Another speech of Jesus i like is the "beatitudes " .
Amitié Michel
Yes, we did have some great discussion. I am glad it did not descend to anger and name calling; those arguments are useless at best and harmful at worst. We don't all have to agree to have an intelligent discussion.
This is one of those most excellent blogs you produce so often! I have many questions about God that I wouldn’t want to clutter up your comment section listing them all! I never questioned the existence of God until I lost my dad 8 years ago and since I have had many doubts and it truly bothers me and I believe my husband as well.
I do like Exmortis' comment. Ok, ok, his is the only one I didn't skim over, to be fair. Being an American Lit. teacher, right after the study of Native American mythology we move into Puritanism. The students are always horrified with the Puritanical methods as portrayed in that literature (with the exception of Anne Bradstreet, of course). The idea of an angry god, that we're all sinners hoping God will be merciful with us. Scary indeed. I need to be more familiar with the Bible, need to read more to understand how one could've interpreted the Guy in such a way, I guess.
And it's not short-sightedness, Morty. It's hope.
Thank you again for this dialogue. It does us all good to listen respectfully and converse accordingly.
I think that the term "God" is relevant to how each person defines it..
.. I believe in one Universal Energy/Spirit .. and that every individual has their own perception of that.. and that our own lives are not defined by what we believe.. but how well we live up to our own personal ethics..
Doubts are the necessary precursor to clarity. Learning and questioning and yes, doubting, is the only way to worthwhile knowledge.
This really was an incredible experience. I commend everyone that commented on your thought-provoking essay. It never went nasty and that made it really great to read.
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