October 30, 2002

  • Dwaber asked "what would you say if you had courage?"  I don't have much courage, but I do have an answer.


    To be above
    With the saints I love
      Oh, that will be glory
    Here below
    With the saints I know
       That's a different story.


    That Exmortis is tearing up my comments section leaving quips that get me started thinking about more and different tangents.  Yesterday, he worried that gawd's faithfull masses equate his will with war and intolerance.  I can tell by this statement that he's never attended a Wednesday night business meeting of the local faithful masses.  


    Let's say that hypothetically, God lit up a neon sign reading, "It is My will that you kill your neighbor."


    65% of the congregation would miss it because they don't show up.
    10% would offer to form a committee to see how this suggestion could be worked into the five year plan.
    5% would declare on the spot that there was no budget item for a neon sign this year and that God should bear the cost.
    7% would notice that the word neighbor is spelled "n e i g h b o u r" in the King James version and would demand that the sign be altered to reflect the one true and Authorized Word of God which everyone knows is the one that Jesus used.
    3% would protest that the pastor had put God up to it to fulfill his own hidden agenda.
    3% would say this is why the pastor doesn't need a raise this year.
    2% would say that they need a new building to carry out God's program.
    5% would vote to adjourn to the kitchen for coffee and pie.


    Can you tell that I'm not a huge fan of churches?  Oh, I understand that as a Christian I'm automatically enrolled in the Church spread out through time and space, rooted in eternity.  I rather like that.  The church I have a problem with is the one aroudn the corner, you know the one I'm talking about - the Baptist Methodist Episcopalian Presbyterian Church of God, Jesus, Mary, and the Holy Spirit Community Fellowship of Catholic Orthodoxy.  The Great Church is largely invisible in day to day dealings with local congregations made up of bad tempered men and women who sing off key, have shoes that squeak, wobble their chins when they speak, and wear odd things. 


    I'm not surprised when I turn on the evening news and see destruction, degradation, and despair.  See I believe (along wth Carl Jung) that the Judeo-Christian-Muslim doctrine of Original Sin makes more sense of the observable world than all the sophisticated humanist philosophy I was tested on in school.  I get the whole God thing.  I get that humanity left to its own devices will naturally gravitate toward muck and misery.  I get that God in compassion reaches out to individuals.  I get that there is nothing I can do to attract His attention, I already have it whether I want it or not.  I get that through God's grace I have an invitation to a relationship that will do no less than transform my life.  I don't get that when God sets me down in a group of other people who've RSVPed that they too want to attend the party, they immediately start to ... fight.


    See I'm really cool with God.  He and I get along fairly well most of the time, seriously.  He tells me jokes.  He has a wicked sense of timing though, put me in a room full of serious pray-ers and sure as anything He'll whisper something in my ear that gets me giggling.  I get a lot of weird looks, but I'll tell you, God is funny and He does a dead on Bill Cosby impersonation.


    Church has the capacity to be cool, I can't imagine anything better than a group of people with a Friend in common getting together to celebrate that friendship.  I've been a part of small circles of the Friend's friends who are more concerned with staffing the red cross disaster kitchen than they are with whether they are on the committee to choose new carpeting.  I've been a member of communities who literally go all over the world building hospitals, schools, and homes.  I've been to celebrations of the Friendship that were so real, intense and beautiful that all I could do was cry. 


    None of the things that make church cool have anything to do with religion.  They are all about relationship.  As a general rule when I write about religion, I try to make sure I use the term in a positive sense.  But, the truth is that I don't place much stock in religion, and especially not Organized Religion.  It seems to me that religion is just rules and regulations that try to outline the one acceptable relationship to Friend, and that makes no sense to me.  I don't have the same relationship with my husband that anyone else has with him, I don't have the same relationship with my son that anyone else has with him.  Can you imagine anything sillier than trying to write out a list of rules for the one and only true way that you can interact with Tim based on my interactions with him?  (I can promise you that Tim doesn't want that either.)  Why do we try to do that to God?


    At least this is what I might say, if I had courage.

Comments (31)

  • you've just said it, and i say again: you are one wonderful and insightful and courageous person.

  • and btw, i feel god in the silences more than anywhere else.

  • ..if we had courage we would do as Jesus said and not forsake meeting with one another ... study His word .... and do what it says .... and realize He came as a servant and an example of what we are to be ... servants to one another .... and we would be .... if we called upon His courage ... as we are directed too ... but then, that would be too easy .... and we wouldn't have anything to bicker about, pass the buck on and we wouldn't care about the color of the carpet but instead would there be enough room for our neighbor to sit next to us as we learn more about His word and how to be that servant ....

  • You do have courage girl. I love your stats, LMBO, and that is the sad part of the whole thing…I laughed because they are only too true. Organized Religion, to me, is a pit of bondage. No disrespect meant to "God". Noting there is a difference between religion and "Him". And as usually another thought provoking, wonderful blog.

  • I have said it for all of time and will till I die: I hate christians. In general I find them to be a useless sub-spieces of the human race who we'd all be better without. With that in mind I am of course one of that wicked number. I have attended church since infancy, led the school bible study, had about five different nicknames in highschool refering to my religion, and even attended a church of God college for a year.
    I am burnt out. I can't stand the backstabbing, pious, useless, run of the mill christian enough to be in the same thousand seat audoturiom anymore. It's been a while since I attended church service and it's starting to bother me (this is partialy because I work at night which makes church attendance nigh impossible without a large loss of sleep).
    I need some more substance to my christian life but I fear trying to get it. Falling in with the average christian again may just be the last straw on an overburderned back.

  • That was well thought out.  I happen to also have my own dislike of organized religion.  At one time in my life I attended church regularly, but I guess you could say that I "seen the light".  Of course, that's just the opposite of what my local Christians preach.

  • This was well thought out and well presented; very good post.  However, my faith kind of vanished on me a year or so ago and reading this from my perspective is like trying to read Greek at 100 yards in the rain.  If you've lost that connection or never had it, it is hard to relate.

  • Bravo!

    What gets me is...the vast majority of world religions teach compassion and kindness, both as very high priorities.

    So what's going wrong?  Is it in fact that they've become "organised" religions, and the "organisation" part has become more important?  Is it that we're raising generations of rude, selfish folk who can't get passed the "me me me" stage? 

    A nation scratches it's head, and ponders.

    And Tess goes to the Mall to buy more Halloweenie stuff!

  • You go Sister!

  • Yeppers, agreed.

  • Oh, sheesh, must my family starve again tonight?  I hope you know that I have set up a whole file named "Quiltnmomi" to compose my comments here.  Off I go...............As Arnold would say, "I'll be baaaaack!"

  • This has got to be one of the saddest blogs I've read in a while -- sad in that makes me want to cry. And a few of the comments have me just sitting here, aghast and saddened.

    Christianity is not a religion -- it's a faith. It is definitely a relationship with God. I utterly abhor the word "religion".

    As for church and the term "organized religion"... I have to think that over, but there is one thing I know for sure... humans are humans whether they're Christian, atheist, Buddhist or Muslim. They are always going to drop their humanity into their beliefs and there will always be bickering, arguments, division, etc. We're simply that way. Your introductory stats had me chuckling because I see folks doing this no matter where they are -- at church or at work, at school or even at home.

    There's this wee little verse that I totally take to heart. You know it:

    "For where two or three are gathered together in my name,there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:20)"

    This might be an overused verse, but I think it says a lot. Folks who believe one thing hunger to talk, converse and fellowship with others who believe the same way... inevitably they are drawn together or they shrivel in upon themselves. I spent a year away from church when I hit college. I got so screwed up in what I believed and I found myself so easily led to believe things that simply weren't true once I read the Bible again. I was miserable.

    And since I've moved to Vegas I have found having a church family to be so crucial. We have literally gone through hell down here and if it hadn't been for an amazing church body (which yes, does indeed consist of all the usual human afflictions of bickering, backstabbing, etc.) we'd have gone down the tubes and fast.

    I think there's a reason churches exist (and have existed since Jesus called his disciples together) and I think it's important to remember they're not just buildings, but they're organisms -- they're living, breathing masses of imperfect people seeking each other and God out.

    Anyway. You got me to thinking this morning and I don't often share mostly because I hate thinking. *winks* My daughters sucked out my thinking brain cells eons ago. LOL.

    Take care. 

  • I really like the breakdown of who would or wouldn't do what... having worked at a church I see how it works.. or doesn't work. Good post!

  • Okay, THIS time I was with you 'til the very end (shaking head, still not seeing how you Deep Thought, Children, Goats, Book Reviews, and just-about-everything-else TOO!).  I am not a Christian.  I do not even believe that any individual fallible human has yet understood "God," whatever he/she/it is, or is not.  But I am very cool with people who are cool with their own beliefs.  Very cool all around.  What I am NOT cool with is sanctimonious rule-followers who think they've got personal dibs on the One, the Only, the Sole, the Prize-Winning Rule Book.  And that I need to follow it too, or suffer eternal damnation.  Not at all cool. 

    Thank you for your care, as always. 

  • I'm a Christian.  I love Jesus.  Most Christians get on my nerves. 

  • See, this prompts me to write again.  Both Jesus and Buddha (amongst others) taught compassion, patience, understanding and love.  With this in mind.. Why do we *allow* others to "get on our nerves"?  Surely, the reason why we let this happen, is not because of the person...but rather, our *own* thoughts, expectations and ideals are being disappointed.  So...the answer lies in US, not in the other person. We can't change anyone (and nor should we), but we certainly can change our own ways of thinking, allowing us to be more resiliant, and calm minded, and helping us see that anger and frustration are usually not conducive to happiness.

    Perhaps if we could recognise the source of these feelings, we could stop them before they ever got to anger, or resentment?

    Ok, I'll hush again...for now ;)

    I love your stuff, Terri :)

     

     

  • I'm baaack!

    You feel organized religion is not desirable because you have to deal with bad tempered men and women (and their nasty voices, squeaky shoes, turkey necks, and their odd clothing), and because you feel that organized religion’s "rules and regulations...try to outline the one acceptable relationship to Friend." Shoot, I could add other reasons against organized religion, like religious wars, inquisitions, wealth of church, and poverty of members in many countries.

    But with the over twelve hundred different Christian forms of organized religion, won’t you concede the possibility that there are at least a few with meaningful programs? I know I’ve found one.

    It is not logical to deduct that because churches are filled with imperfect people and because organized religions have rules and regulations on our relationship with Diety (from your experience) that organized religion is not worth taking stock in. Because all the religions you know about are organized, and they have these ingredients, you think all organized religion is not worthy. Respectfully I must say, your experience laid the foundation for certain premises, but it is a fallacy to confuse premises with truth. People are often convinced of the truth of a proposition because it follows from certain unchallenged premises. They fail to see that the premises are not necessarily true.

    Organized religion: my experience is completely opposite. There is no church on this planet full of perfect people. It is through working with other imperfect people like myself that I learn to love, to have patience, to grow as a person--to become Christlike--to have opportunities to serve others of my faith. Rules and regulations on my relationship with God and Christ? I have none from my organized religion. Rules and regulations--as in commandments from God--on how I should act towards my fellow beings--those I have and those I try to live by--imperfectly. But I would not do so if I didn’t believe these were from God, based in scripture and not from man. As a Christian, I believe from the scriptures that when Christ was on the earth, he organized his followers--that was the way He wanted it. We can be part of the problem, or we can be part of the solution--but organized religion is the Lord’s way . Face it Quiltnmomi, He wants you in His church ! Look at the talents he has given you--they are for sharing!

    I did so well, I didn’t even use one single in this blog! Opps! The devil made me do it. Hey, I think I actually have time to make dinner tonight--nah, I’ll order pizza!

  • Hmm -- can't find your guestbook anywhere, so have come back to add a complete non sequitor to the above:  WHAT a PURPLE wall.  Wowsers !  And I would love to inhabit your guest room some day.  When I reciprocate, you may have either the tv/toy room, or share the "women's room" where the kids and I sleep.  Very Small Abode syndrome .

  • Well said.  You have more courage than the Cowardly Lion! o/

    God Bless -Dale

  • I've been in several groups that were friends of a common friend. (great way to put it, btw) Our friend was alcohol, and our gathering places frequently had plenty of neon. I'm sure that sounds sacrilegious to some, but we had companionship, and isn't that what always brings people together, regardless of the sign on the door?

    Speaking of which, the should call churches "houses of companionship" rather than houses of worship. It sounds less intimidating, and an all-knowing gawd can see you anywhere, but Joan from down the street has to be in a room with you to swap cake recipes.

    You see, I heard someone say once:

    "God lives in all of us, and the only way to truly love him is through kindness to the people around us. He hears that more clearly than a thousand prayers in a thousand churches."

    I thought at the time -and still do- that he was probably one of the few people I've ever heard that truly has faith in a powerfull goodness. And what a message! Isn't that really what is between the lines of everything in the bible? Isn't that supposed to be the point? The dog-and-pony show is a human creation, faith was originally supposed to be about love and understanding.

    And the place to learn about love and understanding is in the mirror each morning, not an ancient book or a grandiose building with a cross on it.

    (Thank you for this series of blogs. I've loved your ideas, and the considerations they've inspired for me.)

  • powerful words... well stated... and very thought provoking...

  • Another "if I could give you 50 props I would" blog! 

    My preacher man, the source of my Soul Food each week, spoke of this a few weeks ago. Here is the link to the blog I did on it the next day.

    Short version:  The world has mixed up the ideas of religion with a personal relationship with God.

    I personally don't believe that "religion" is a requirement to find God.  I know a lot of people who have religion who don't have a personal relationship with God.  They use Him as a crutch to insist their way is right.  They use Him as a political tool.  They memorized every word of the Bible to show they are close to Him.  But that isn't God.  That is learning God with your mind - not with your heart, your soul.

    Until I find a church home I can feel God's presence in (as opposed to find it in the statues and the windows and the hymnal), I'll keep doing what I'm doing and know that He is with me.

  • You need to start here. Good luck...

  • organized religion is somewhat of an oxymoron; but god in his vast humor/wisdom sees that it's what works for the vast majority of christians-

    the rest choose to have a deep and meaningful and private relationship with him in their daily life instead of once on sundays :~)

    i'd say whatever works is what is best

  • You know, most often than not when I visit here I cannot understand one bit of the topic....because you use big words...LOL No offense but I am not an intellectual type. I did however understand this blog...my only response is, Christians are stereotyped. Just as any person of a different origin, nationality or creed is here in the US.

    My problem with this thinking is all Christians are lumped in to one pot, when it is not all that participate in this sort of behavior.

    I am not immune to gossip, bickering or social chatter in church, but I will tell you that when I walk in to the church house I am there to listen to the word of God and I am not concerned about the happenings around the church.

    Usually you have to be a member of the church to participate in all the behind the scenes happenings...and I have never joined a church out of the fact that I have not found a church that I am completely at "home" in....but I hope that my willingness and my faith in God will keep me from wagging my tongue, curb my temper and help me show my fellow followers of Christ, that these types of behavior are not what God had intended.  I think we are too quick to "follow the leader" in church to be open and honest, afraid we will say something to hurt our name in the church itself, but if you truly loved your fellow man as God instructed, you will be able to kindly and openly express your opinion about such behavior....

    in essence, as a God fearing person, you should be steadfast and stand your ground, and if I happen to be the one bickering or spreading gossip, I would think that a church elder should calmly pull me aside and let me know that it is NOT appropriate. We have to be taught and for some it takes a little longer to sink in....

    Oh well I hope this made sense....

    Much love,

    Tina

  • Wow... my 18 year old (who is wise beyond her years) and I had a talk until way past midnight last night, 3,000 miles apart mind you, about this very subject.

    Amazing thing is, I got so much from her views. One thing that comes to mind is, having true courage is to question God's will. Really question it. Read that Bible upside down, sideways, and then do it again, all with a big question mark above your head.

    She's searching for the truth about God, and to know Him better. I told her I've been searching for it since long before she took a breath, and to please let me know what she found.

    Amazing blog.

  • my.

    You may not have courage as you define it, sistah, but you certainly have belief of convictions... Every time I read you, I get more in awe of your unique and diverse viewpoints regarding those subjects that touch me personally. You inspire me, not just to write better but to think things through better. Of course, i should add that i agree with most of your observations as well...

    BTW, I read your book review too... I read The Lovely Bones when it first came out and was thoroghly haunted by it--- the scene where she watches as her father cries into their dog's fur and especially at the end when she and the boy, thru her friend, well... you know... those scenes... man!

  • ...amen. MuSe

  • Would you stop talking out of my own brain already?

    It is an unfortunate situation all around. The "members of the congregation" that you describe are the ones who get Christians stereotyped in the first place. Now, "friends of the Friend" aptly describes how the church community should be.

    The ironic part is that we need Christ because we are so "human."

  • I think I'll have to respond in blog form after our school day is done, rather than take up a page and a half worth of space here.

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